Transcript
Just for everybody in the audience, who do we have the pleasure of welcoming here today? First of all, Bianca. She is a risk compliance manager with more than 20 years in security. Once alone still really makes Bianca wins and it's people are the weakest link. She has made it her mission to fight the camp, fight for the camp of the user, not the camp and arm them with information and knowledge to stay safe on and offline. Welcome. Thank you. Next, I would like to welcome Hanan to the stage. She is the security awareness officer at Anaco group. She's known for her innovative approach to influencing human behavior in cyber security. Her career at Anaco began during her studies already, moving through project management roles and evolving into a focus on optimizing processes as a Lean Six Sigma black belt. Exactly. And this journey sparked her passion for making a real impact and led her into leadership. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. And let me also welcome Bettina. She has been with Dr. Babour since 1999, starting as an apprentice industrial clerk. So really grown careers we have here today. After more than 15 years in sales, where she gained deep insights into customer needs and business operations, Bettina then joined Babour's IT department in 2016 and she now oversees master data modeling and information security, blending her sales experience with IT experience to align on operational needs with strong data management and security practices. Welcome. Thank you. So, it's a pleasure to all have you here and maybe I've already touched a little bit on it, but maybe to you all, can you maybe share a little bit on your journey that has led you into cybersecurity and being here today, maybe even? Absolutely. It's not a typical journey, but then I think there aren't any typical journeys because my background has nothing to do with cybersecurity. I have a degree in English Renaissance poetry. So let's say Shakespeare. But there is an overlap. It's also a topic where many people don't go, how fascinating. And unfortunately that also still applies to cybersecurity. So there is a connection. Yes. Yeah. Do you want to? Yeah, the same goes for me. I'm not your typical security awareness officer, although I've been working at the company for about 16 years. And as a millennial, I'm often ashamed to say I have been working there for 16 years. On the other hand, it's a really great company to work for. And I got in touch with cybersecurity when I was working at our operational wind department. And it was the first domain where I realized that they really had a focus on human behavior. And that's certainly something I missed in all my change management roles before, because it was really about the deliverables and making sure you make the improvements and measure the improvements. And the focus was very much on customer satisfaction and not on the employees or on the behavior. So for me, this was a domain where I thought, well, I can thrive here. So yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Bettina, we've already heard a little bit, right? So maybe a bit more specific. What sparked your interest to say and move from sales to IT? Well, it started actually with master data management, because we did not have the position right at that time for that topic. But we needed it because data is becoming more and more important. And well, I needed to change and I wanted to have a new opportunity. And that's how I actually came to the IT department. And when I shifted, only a couple of months later, my boss actually asked me, said, OK, I've got another topic, which is quite interesting, and it's information security, because we've got also some big customers and we expected them to require in a few years that we go in line with the ISO 27001. And that's actually how it all started. And he said, OK, in the quality you bring as a person, we need to have in that position. And would you like to do it? And to be honest, at that time, I didn't have a clue what information security is about and what it's going to expect me. And it's more or less a whole life at my bar where I was like, OK, let's try. And that's how it actually began. Yeah. All right. So three very different journeys, but I also see that there are some common topics, right? Not what you would call a typical planned straightforward career or something like that. And maybe two kind of hit the topic very bluntly over the hat. So what do you think, as a group that's very qualified to speak on that topic, is the current state of diversity in cybersecurity? Shall we be politically correct or shall we be honest? Honest. You see, we have a nice and cozy environment here. Speak from your heart. Speaking from... Well, I did a tiny little survey in our own team, in our cybersecurity team in NS. We are, let's say, 26 people now and three quarters are male. And they were typically from a higher education background. And half of them have come through the IT route, for want of a better word. Neurodiversity, not so much. And so empirically, there's a lot that still needs to be done. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And also research also shows, right, that when you look at cybersecurity workforce globally, it's about 24% female. And then when you zoom in onto the Netherlands, it reduces to 18%. So I think there's a lot to be done also to make sure that we attract these people, whether it's female or people that are neurodiverse. Because diversity is not only about male or female. And it's also about the visible differences, but also the invisible differences. And I think that's the most important thing. Absolutely. Yes, so maybe it's pretty obvious that there's still a lot to be done and a lot to be improved. But also maybe directed to you, Bettina, has something changed already? How would you say has the landscape evolved over the course of your career, for example? I still remember, I think one of the first events I went to for cybersecurity, it was not a big one. But I think I kind of looked around and I think I felt like I was the only woman on that part. And I thought, okay, I feel a little bit lost, like I'm, I don't know, like coming from a different planet. And in fact, I mean, if you look around here, I think you see women and you see also men. But still, I think that the male amount is still bigger than the female. I mean, all the other differences, they are not obvious. So I don't know if anybody's gay. I don't know about their religion, about their any other attitudes they have. I don't know. So that's not obvious. But the difference between male and female is quite obvious. Yeah. I think you already kind of alluded to the topic, right? Obviously male and female representation is one topic. But really diversity is about more. It's about underrepresented groups overall. So in your perspective, what are some of the persistent barriers that underrepresented groups face in the moment of entering or advancing within cybersecurity roles? Well, I think first of all, when you look at, and it goes for females, but also for people of color, for example, they face systematic barriers, right? So whether it's access to education or a network, a mentor, a sponsor, it's something that that group really needs to deal with at first. And when you look at cybersecurity vacancies, for example, well, they require five years of experience, for example. So my hope for the future is that we learn how to select people based on their qualities instead of looking at working experience and giving people chances, right? And making sure that we try to also value these people. I Googled today and I saw there are about four million job openings in cybersecurity industry. It's ridiculous. It's crazy. So why would there not be an opportunity for someone who doesn't fit in the picture? And I think one last thing I would like to mention is that people are known for selecting people who look like them, right? So if you want more women in your team, then just make sure that in that process of selecting new people, that you bring diversity in the process, whether it's more women doing the conversations with potential candidates, or it's someone from the LGBTQ plus community or whatsoever, just to make sure you look from a different perspective to these people. So that would be my recommendation. Yes. Thank you. So like, obviously there's like an individual behavioral side, how we each and everyone act in our day-to-day job, but it's also an organizational topic, right? So Bianca, maybe directed to you, in your opinion, in your perspective, how can organizations foster this inclusivity, this culture that not only brings in diverse talent, but also ensures that they can actually thrive and advance in their position? I think there's a lot around making things practical for them. Many of these beautiful initiatives in the world, and most of the big companies have everything written down and presented in a beautiful PowerPoint. For instance, in NS, we have a collaboration with something called Refugee Talent Hub. So these are refugees that come to the Netherlands and they have an enormous amount of skill and they get sort of preferential treatment, which is also a big thing always, right? And we attract them and we employ them. But then what? Can somehow magically these people find their way in a completely alien society? No, we also have to, in our teams, find somebody who's going to be their language buddy, for instance, and they get a buddy that helps them sort of get to grips with how different cultural sensitivities in the workspace are. So yes, everybody has this beautiful PowerPoint, but how many people actually have the buddy or how many people have the time to be the buddy? So get them in, but also support them once they're in. Does that make sense? It makes a lot of sense. I think this is a little bit the difference between the letter of the word and living in, right? So maybe I find that very interesting. You already kind of commented on having a buddy or something like that. So maybe to all of you, what role do mentorships and sponsorships play in advancing diversity in cybersecurity, in organizations, and how can we make these opportunities more accessible? That was the question I was fearing for. I think maybe sponsorship might help, it's money, but at the end of the day, I think we need to change our attitude. It's not about, are you a male, are you a female, or are you colored or not? It's just, I think we all need to be more open-minded and to look more behind the faces. I think this is what is more important. We need to change our minds. Maybe also directed to you with regards to Aneco, because I understand you also have taken measures and implemented measures to work on that, right? I think mentorship and sponsorship plays really a big role in enhancing career possibilities also for these people, and it's also a simple example, right? It's making sure that your name is being mentioned in a room where you do not have normally access to, right? So you really need sponsorship or sponsors, right, who also value the fact that you have a different view on topics or have a different skill set to bring to the table, and it's really also making sure that you really live what diversity and inclusion is instead of the PowerPoints that you were referring to. Yes, so I understand that besides the value that diversity has in itself and to pursue getting to this more diverse state, there are also very concrete implications for businesses to actually foster this inclusivity and have more diversities. So what are the pretty obvious advantages, in your opinion, that businesses have when they implement these diverse workforces, these measures to increase diversity? I think the most obvious one, the one that everybody always mentions, but there's a reason why it's the obvious one, is that our adversaries are very diverse and they employ diverse tactics. So therefore, having just one way of looking at the world and one view of how we defend ourselves from those enormously diverse adversaries doesn't make any sense, right? So just on a really practical level, we need diversity because the bad guys are pretty diverse also. Yeah, let's just mention there's also a business case for diversity, right? So there are several researches that show that you get more innovative, you get more efficient, you get greater ideas. So I think we live in a diverse world, so why would our teams not be diverse, right? Yes, yes. So maybe to kind of shift back to a more individual perspective, so what advice would you give to individuals from underrepresented groups, to women, people with diverse backgrounds who are considering a career in cybersecurity? Don't. No, that's not true. I hope so. Reach out to... There are a number of people that are pretty visible, just ask, because we just established that most people don't get to this position through some kind of set path. So reach out to somebody and say, this cybersecurity stuff, tell me, what is it about? Just first get a sense of what it's about and whether your skill set actually fits. Yeah. Bettina, you want to comment? Well, I think, first of all, we have to be self-confident and we have to just give it a try. So that's the first thing. I just have to be, I want to do it, just do it. So you just have to start. I think cybersecurity is a wide range of topics and I think that anybody can find a specific part in that branch where they can be a specialist. So I think that's just, yeah, you have to deal with the topic and you have to inform yourself. And I think there will be something you find which fits to you and where you be very authentic and where you can also bring it to other people. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I think there's a point to be made about also the confidence part, right? Especially if you're also talking about leadership roles, these are often very closed groups, very male-dominated and establishing oneself in these might be especially challenging. So maybe to double down on that a little bit, because you're all in leadership roles, right? How have you managed to do that and what is there maybe to be shared with our audience? I'd have to say be self-aware, because what I struggled with personally was the fact that I was kind of internalizing people's views on me, right? So I would be in the leadership position and then I would doubt myself and I would be like, okay, why am I here? Do I deserve this? And that's something to be conscious about. And it took me a while, but I think a little bit of self-awareness and a little bit of coaching and also trying to find a way to be your authentic self is the way to go. And it's a long road, but it's possible. And I think that's also why I find role modeling also important, right? So for people who don't normally see these people, that they get the view like, okay, if I can see it, then I can possibly achieve it, right? So yeah. Yes. Thank you so much. So we're steering towards the end of our panel for today, but I really want to take the chance and open up the floor also for questions from the audience. So if you have a question for our panelists, kindly just raise our hands. We have somebody with a mic who can come to you for you to ask a question. We don't have you on the monitor yet. Hello? Yeah. Yeah. You can hear me. I really find the discussion very interesting and especially around being a body and role models. And I think that we talked already about what we can do when we hire people. My question maybe to you in the audience, and I kind of know the answer already for some at least of you already, what are you doing yourself to be that role model or to be that mentor? And Hanna, I know from you that you're quite active with that. And maybe you can share a little bit more about what kind of, you did a lot of work for yourself. That's, that's very cool to see. You also do a lot of work for others, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's a conscious step. So I, I'm in the work field for about two years now and I decided to be out there. And I was, I started with blogging on, on LinkedIn and I knew I had some kind of niche, which is crazy because I'm one of the few women of color in this work field. And I thought, okay, if I can do it, why couldn't other people do it? No matter what minority you are. So and it gave me a lot of opportunities. So the fact that I'm sitting here is because I met you in Amsterdam and it was while networking. Right. So it's also an invitation for people to make sure that you grasp that stage and, and expose your qualities and, and opportunities will come. So, and I do believe in, I really do believe in role modeling. So if I can inspire anyone who thinks that it's not realistic to be on this stage or even have a job in cybersecurity, well, you're wrong. It's all possible. Please. Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. Wonderful job. Fantastic comments. I love what you guys said. I have a question for each of you. A little bit of creative question. Okay. Okay. So if you could get in a time machine and travel back to your 12 year old self, what's the one piece of advice you would tell your 12 year old self to do so they could have the confidence and courage to do what you've achieved? I didn't get it. Hmm. Yeah, I heard it. Yeah. For me, I think that would be just do it. And this is not a plug. This is not about, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But there's a lot of self doubt and it's, it's, it's, I think, more of a female thing than a male thing. Sorry, male people in the audience. But just always questioning whether you know, I'm not sure do I have all the qualifications, look at this. Write, write the letter, just see what happens, what's the worst that can happen. They say go away, we're not, you know, looking for anybody like you, just do it. That would be for me. For me, it would be, you're worthy. And why am I saying this? Because after all my work experience, cybersecurity is the first work field for me, where the first reaction that people give me is, is, oh, so that means you're intelligent. And they really say this out loud as if it's the normal, most normal or most common thing to say. So, and I discovered that I was always, you know, proving my intelligence and making sure that other people think I'm worthy too. So if I could go back, then I say you're worthy. If I go back and maybe it's connecting to the question of the, what's the difference to get a leading person, I think be able to take responsibility. I think this is something you really have to do in a leading position. And it's not that you have to know everything yourself. So there's a community. So you can also connect to others. And which is important is you have to enable others. It's not that you have to do everything yourself. And maybe sometimes that's something I need to know about more of myself to let the others do more than myself. All right. Thank you so much. It was an authentic pleasure to have that panel with you today. Big round of applause for our panelists.
